Mineral vs. Chemical Sunscreen: The Reef Damage, Aerosol Risks & SPF Myths Nobody's Talking About with Shannon Kenner of Waxhead Sun Defense

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#34 Mineral vs. Chemical Sunscreen: The Reef Damage, Aerosol Risks & SPF Myths Nobody's Talking About with Shannon Kenner of Waxhead Sun Defense

☀️ mineral or chemical...does your sunscreen choice actually matter? we sat down with Shannon Kenner, co-founder of Waxhead Sunscreen, to find out.

Shannon and his wife, Kari, started  @gowaxhead  after their son's eczema pushed them to dig into what's actually in sunscreen and what they found changed everything about how their family approaches sun protection.

☀️we're diving into:
+ why "reef safe" isn't a regulated term (and what to actually look for)
+ oxybenzone swapped for avobenzone, same problem, different name
+ how aerosol sunscreens may be contaminated with benzene, a known carcinogen
+ the real difference between nano and non-nano zinc oxide
+ why zinc oxide doesn't expire (and chemical sunscreen does)
+ the white cast "problem" and why Shannon calls it "the badge of smart living" + tattoos, melasma and mineral sunscreen...does it work differently?
+ SPF science explained simply- why 30 is basically always enough

☀️ The Waxhead Sun Defense team was also kind enough to offer our listeners a 20% discount off your first order! Use promo code: crunchy

☀️ if you want more deep dives, clean swaps, podcast extras, all the things we couldn't squeeze into a caption...that's exactly what our substack is!
once a week (Mondays), straight to your inbox!  subscribe below ⬇️

https://substack.com/home/post/p-202891078

Chapters

00:00: introduction to the episode
00:35 – how Waxhead started (the eczema story behind it)
11:31 – what's actually in chemical sunscreen
13:18 – the Hawaii reef ban + "regrettable substitution"
23:51 – aerosol sunscreen & the "secondhand smoke" comparison
31:55 – benzene contamination findings in aerosol sunscreens
34:31 – the white cast conversation- "the badge of smart living"
38:21 – chemical vs. mineral sunscreen, explained simply
39:24 – how zinc oxide actually works (band-gap absorption)
41:33 – nano vs. non-nano zinc oxide
47:39 – SPF water resistance & FDA regulations
53:02 – the SPF math — why 30 is basically always enough
57:11 – tattoos, melasma & mineral sunscreen
1:00:52 – nitric oxide, vitamin D & finding balance
1:02:42 – rapid fire round
1:03:23 – what the sunscreen industry doesn't want you to know

Mentions

EWG.org

Black Girl Sunscreen

Read Transcript ↓

Transcript

MARGUERITE (00:00) welcome to the show. Thank you. And absolutely. we're very excited to have you. So let's start off by talking a little bit about the origin of Waxhead. How did it start? How'd you get into sunscreen? Shannon Kenner (00:01) Thank you. Thanks for having me. We lived in Atlanta for 15 years, and in twenty thirteen we moved here. Amelia Islands, it's a little bit north of Jacksonville, and Carrie had always been a person who, probably like you, researched a lot on the internet and found stuff before other people did. Like I remember her telling me about partially hydrogen and oil before it was a thing. And she was just ahead, you know, she's just ahead of the curve. Probably like you guys are more intensely now. anyway, so we moved here and we'd always used stuff like Neutrogena, Helioplex. Wow, that sounds sciencey. And MARGUERITE (00:33) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Shannon Kenner (00:46) We were like everybody else. You know, we we had our day jobs we didn't have enough time in the day to to care about every little thing. You know, you you trust that the powers that be. And I'm not an anti-establishment guy or anything, but you know, everybody's gotta make a living, and if something's allowed, some people are gonna take advantage of that stuff, and that's what the big sunscreen companies do. And so we found that out. We s we like, what? What oxybenzone? What huh? And all the other stuff and the long list of inactives and and it was crazy. And so when we moved here our youngest was five and he had eczema, ⁓ moderate, you know, moderate to almost severe sometimes. You know, he would have band-aids on his hands and you know, your heart goes out to him. You as a parent, you want to do anything you can to help him. And so we just became more aware of of skincare ingredients and when and sunscreen in particular because we just moved to Florida and it was horrifying. MARGUERITE (01:33) Yeah. Shannon Kenner (01:42) And we did more and more research. And then we got into the nutritional component of it. our first product was actually not sunscreen, it was a sun defense nutrient bar. ⁓ we yeah, we found some really cool studies. I think one is University of Oregon, one is University of Texas, and they were big. MARGUERITE (01:54) Really? Shannon Kenner (02:00) N equals a thousand double blind, you know, legitimate empirical science studies that showed that a combination of high levels of antioxidants, both a fat-soluble and a water-soluble antioxidant, would basically remove the free radicals, the abundance of free radicals created by UV energy hitting the skin. That's I mean that's what one of the things that happens is it hits your skin and it creates a bunch of free radicals. And your body, especially when it's young, can keep up with that. But as you grow older and you're less able to keep up with it. You know, and eventually we all grow old and die, but we can be more healthy along the way, right? Anyway, so we tested it out. We we contacted a a bar manufacturer, I think they were in Chicago, and they made these really good whole ingredient bars, you know, oats and cranberries and stuff like that. And so we literally have them add 500% of your daily allowance of both vitamin E, fat soluble, and vitamin C, water soluble. And we actually were going to do more vitamin E, but we backed it up because we realized it is fat soluble. It doesn't exit the body automatically like a vitamin C does. You can literally overdose on it, right? And so anyway, so we made these bars and to start we sent out to fishermen and surfers who who we'd come across and we would send them a a box of twelve and they would go out and do their thing and if they normally wore sunscreen they would leave a forearm or a leg or something exposed with no sunscreen and if they go out for three hours or five hours or all day or whatever then they would heuristically document how much redness, how much pain before and after shower, how much peeling, how fast, all that kind of stuff, describe it. And then use some sort of ratings for levels of pain and levels of redness, et cetera. Levels of peeling. You know, on one a one to ten, ten being the most, how much did you peel? Yeah. they would eat the bars one a day for over the next two weeks. And then they'd go do their thing again. With the different forearm exposed, so there was no sort of tanning advantage. So we felt like it was apples to apples. And then they would leave that exposed. And then they would do another description and data their sort of heuristic data collection on pain and all those sort of things, one to ten. And so we did it thirty times and we were thirty for thirty. Every person felt it had been an improvement. It was a improvement of forty-eight percent. And now this was not double blind. There was no placebo. We knew what we were testing. They knew what we were testing. so I'm sure there was some bias there. I'm I'm an old stat guy, but we felt like it was a confirmation of true scientific studies. And this w it was very popular. I mean of course we didn't get rich doing it. people bought them, but logistically it was too much and also the FDA started coming down on I think it was some sort of helio sun product or it a pill and it made promises of some something similar. It was doing a different mechanism nutritionally, but the idea was the same. It was eat your sunscreen. And they got kind of shut down. And so we thought, well mm and then we tried we also tried to patent the technology and we had some good patent attorneys, but The person we got at the patent office was sort of a gatekeeper mentality. And they were like, I don't think that this is possible, so Anyway, we we didn't want to keep spending good money after bad to keep doing that. And it also hit us that not enough people are going to eat a 200 calorie per bar snack every day, the same thing. I they're wanna they want some variety in their life. And we had different flavors, but you're not gonna. So we just we shelved it. It's still shelved. we're gonna try to put it in gummies or something like that But in the meantime, we started selling sunscreen and that's been much just you know more normal, not as weird. So again, long answer. So anyway, we we we did bars first and then got into sunscreen. Yeah. MARGUERITE (05:30) Yeah. Yeah, that'd be great. Yeah. No, that's okay. That's like so interesting. I feel like gummies would be a really good idea and I even for kids too. But I feel like that is something that is so smart, but like the timing, you need the perfect timing for it. Shannon Kenner (05:54) There needs to be a story on Good Morning America telling Americans that this is a thing. I call it the middle class consumer mindset. I'm middle class, but I don't have a consumer mindset. I don't think you guys have a consumer mindset. I think there are ton of people out there who don't have a consumer mindset, but a large portion of the first world has just a total consumer mindset. They want everything to be an easy button, they want it to be a Disney cruise. they they think there can be a thing where there's no trade-offs where ever where it's all positive. It's like, no, there are trade-offs with our sunscreen. Our sunscreen for a middle class consumer is a is a weird thing. And they're like, this is too thick, or the ingredients separated in my everyday. So, well no, that's that's but like a natural peanut butter. It doesn't have artificial emulsifier. So it you're gonna s you might see a brown streak of iron oxides. Shake it up, knead it. If there's any separation remains, rub it on your skin, it'd be fine. But that that requires a mindset and a an appreciation of what you're getting versus what you're giving up. And these these sunscreens today, I mean, my goodness, the big sunscreen companies, they are so good at making wonderfully smelling, wonderfully homogenized stuff that's like butter that melts into your skin and 30 to 80 percent right into your bloodstream. MARGUERITE (06:51) Right. Yeah. Yes. Right. I was shocked. I I maybe I'm late to the game, but we were at the store the other day just checking out what was on the shelves and I saw the different fragrances that are included in the sunscreen now. It's like wow, I didn't know they were doing that. Like strawberry. Strawberry, watermelon, coconut, all that good stuff. I was like, You're going in water. Yeah. It's on Yeah, exactly. But you're going in water like usually. Why do you have to smell good? You're out in the sun. Shannon Kenner (07:20) Right. Right. It's n it's natural it's all natural, natural flavors. Just yeah. MARGUERITE (07:31) But you nailed it like the consumer mindset. we see that across the board because we cover a lot of different areas all related to health and wellness. And it's always, especially here, it's always about convenience and speed and not thinking through long term effects. And when you do have those long term effects, you don't necessarily relate it back to those small moves you could have made all along the way, right? We call it something else, we cover it up and we do something different about it. When just pay a little attention in current time, you can do a lot for yourself. Shannon Kenner (07:37) Yeah, yeah. MARGUERITE (07:58) And sunscreen falls right in that category. Shannon Kenner (07:58) Yeah. And who and and who's to say if you develop ⁓ melanoma or s basal cell or squamous cell when you're fifty two, what caused it? Right? Was it was it your genetics? Was it ⁓ environmental pollution? Was it something else, right? MARGUERITE (08:07) Exactly. Shannon Kenner (08:15) do you guys know that the FDA just approved Bematrizinal? MARGUERITE (08:18) Yes. I was gonna ask how you felt about that. Shannon Kenner (08:21) it is a much better petrochemical. It is more photostable when it's hit by sun. It doesn't absorb as much. it's better at covering both UVA and UVB by itself. I haven't seen yet how much of UVA and how well of UVA it covers. Like titanium dioxide is a pretty good sunscreen ingredient. It's not nearly as good as zinc oxide because in the second half of UVA, its coverage drops almost off completely. And so if you're using something with titanium dioxide only, I know another brand used to do that. And she's great. I mean, the woman who started this company, I mean, she's really into the environment stuff and she's an oceanographer, but her first products had titanium dioxide only. And the problem with that is there's a disconnect between what isn't happening as fast on the surface. Because of the very high rates of UVB protection versus what is happening more quickly in deeper tissues. And so you don't get God's or nature's cues, whichever. either God or nature is telling you, you're getting red, you're getting tight, and that's your cue. Like our grandfathers and grandmothers lived and they rolled up their sleeves or went had lunch or got under a tree or put on a hat or you know, of course they didn't have sunscreen, but it it's a clue to put on more. but When you have that disconnect, you don't get that clue as fast as you need it. And so anyway, ⁓ I don't know how much Bemetrazinol protects against the the UVA. And even if it does, it is literally a derivative of crude oil. And they can talk about the European studies all they want, but crude oil is not meant, it's not biochemically matched to human systems, it's not biochemically matched to ocean systems. MARGUERITE (09:42) Right. That's gonna answer that. Shannon Kenner (10:07) it but it but I'm if for all the the consumer mindsets out there who want this quick sunscreen that they can spray on and breathe in their lungs, I think it's better. It's like a there's a there's a anti bug thing that's called Ranger Ready. And it's a much better version. It it doesn't absorb as much, it's still toxic. But it's a fairly effective thing of keeping deer ticks off you and mosquitoes, and that's a good thing. if you're gonna if you're gonna go into the woods in Connecticut in the fall, wear DEET. I mean, I'd rather wear DEET and get a little bit of toxicity exposure than open myself up more to deer ticks and get Lyme disease. ⁓ every every again, everything's a trade-off. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, Range Ranger is a better version of that. And I think I think that Tennesseur MARGUERITE (10:43) Right, right. You gotta pick your battles. Yeah, yeah. Shannon Kenner (10:50) Bonotresinol is a better version of the junk. and that's good. You know, it's like they made a healthier Big Mac. MARGUERITE (10:56) Yes, yeah. Go in the right direction at least. Shannon Kenner (10:56) Yeah. Yeah. MARGUERITE (10:58) So first I wanna start with chemical sunscreens. Can you walk us through the common chemical sunscreen ingredients? Like what are they actually doing to the skin? Shannon Kenner (11:06) Well, oxybenzone is you know, and that's the current industry boogeyman, and that's that was for years the go to of the big companies for protecting against UVA. That and so UVB think burn, skin surface, UVA think aging, deeper tissues, and you wanna cover all of it. And you wanna cover all of it as close to the same rate as possible. So there is no disconnect. That's the beauty of zinc oxide, because it does that by itself. so a modern petrochemical sunscreen is basically it's a puzzle, and each piece of the puzzle sort of covers a different range within the UVB UVA spectrum. And so oxybenzone was put in there to cover the UVA while things like and I might be getting things chemical wrong because there's so many of them, homocalate, noctopryline, they were in there to sort of give oxybenzone more stability and also cover UVB. MARGUERITE (11:52) Yeah. Shannon Kenner (11:53) And the chemicals, how they how they work. So it's a puzzle, they're crude oil derivatives and they're put together in just some some sort of certain way through various advanced chemistry techniques in labs, and they absorb the UV energy. And they kind of like absorb it into your skin and it doesn't do the kind of damage it otherwise would have. But the energy is still kind of around and it doesn't dissipate it and reflect it away the way zinc oxide does. and oxybenzone MARGUERITE (12:21) Right, right. Shannon Kenner (12:24) a typical dose. Of sunscreen with oxybenzone in it or avibenzone mimics estrogen in the body to the tune of a what a woman going through a menopause takes as a daily MARGUERITE (12:35) No kidding. Shannon Kenner (12:36) And we put this on our seven-year-olds and nine-year-old boys and girls. I mean, my goodness. MARGUERITE (12:41) Yeah. Right. Or putting it on every day. Where they're lathering it all over the kids. Shannon Kenner (12:45) Yeah, right. so anyway, so oxybenzone got replaced by Avibenzone. It's a shell game, it's almost the same exact molecular structure. ⁓ what did you say? ⁓ a what? So, right, and I think I saw a video of you a couple days ago. It's like, wow, this these guys are great. And you were talking about the Hawaii ban of 2021, and I talk about this fairly regularly. When in 2021, Hawaii MARGUERITE (12:53) The regrettable substitution. Mm-hmm. Regrettable substitution we love that term. Shannon Kenner (13:11) With great intentions, politically they were I I don't know the political shenanigans that stopped them from banning all petch chemicals. But you know, a lot of their tourism depends on the beautiful sea life that's there and it was getting really hurt and so they were able to ban oxybenzone and octinoxate. But all the others are available and they dutifully substituted ava benzone. It's gonna be the same problems. so that allowed companies to use the term reef safe, which isn't regulated, to say we're reef safe or we're reef friendly because we're oxybenzone. free and we're octinoxate free. Yeah, so. MARGUERITE (13:44) right. I couldn't believe that. That was because I have always known about the ingredients because I've been in clean beauty and I've always paid attention to the ingredients for like us, but I was shocked. I didn't not not even ever think about marine life. And I saw Reef Safe and I was like, well, that's a plus. But I just, I don't know, consumer mind, I guess. I just didn't think much. Shannon Kenner (13:54) Mm-hmm. Right. MARGUERITE (14:05) about it. So that was really surprising and that's like a really big deal. Like this is our earth here that's providing us with resources to survive and we need to take that seriously. Shannon Kenner (14:11) It is. It is and it it so happens that and I get a lot of this I don't know you guys have heard of the Hereditas Foundation. They're in DC and they're an environmental group. And the guy who heads that his name is Craig Downs. You might want to reach out to him. Okay. MARGUERITE (14:27) Yes. I was just about to mention that 'cause he actually did research, yeah, saying that him and Joseph Donardo found that when we were talking about the hormones, he he did research saying at even a normal rate children are exposed as what they consider toxic levels and endocrine disrupting chemicals when they just put like regular sunscreen on. And I thought that was important for parents to know. Shannon Kenner (14:31) Really? Yeah. I mean, I'm not a physician, but I wonder if when I hear endocrine I think I think diabetes. And the diabetes too is out of control, especially among kids. And I think, is that a little part of that? I don't know. because it's messing with your it's messing with your hormones and your your your your glands and all that kind of stuff, and it's can be good. Anyway. So yeah. MARGUERITE (14:55) Yeah. Th who knows there's I think it's a combination of a lot. It is. And like, yeah, we always say too, the crunchy world can be very overwhelming when you're trying to make sure that like everything is perfect. But at the end of the day, we can only do so much. So these little micro changes like switching over sunscreen or anything else, those add up too. But it doesn't mean that we can just completely stress out and change every single thing in twenty twenty six in America, especially. Shannon Kenner (15:20) Right. Right. Unfortunately and it it's unfortunate that ⁓ you know like when you go to a parent class, parenting class is full of people who don't need parenting class, who aren't gonna need it. Because they're they care and they they're gonna be great parents, you know. the ones that need it aren't going to the parenting class. But to to go back to your topic about the reefs, so MARGUERITE (15:39) Yeah. Very true. Good point. Shannon Kenner (15:53) It so hap this comes from Craig. I think he is a well-meaning, unbiased scientist who is truly find trying to find out the truth. I don't think he has an agenda against free enterprise or whatever you want call that. and his unbiased and it's very well informed opinion, is that it's only the marine systems, the coral reef systems that are in close proximity to significant consumer-borne petrochemical runoff, those are the only ones that are truly dying away. All the others are holding their own. They can hold their own against environmental change, whatever you want to think about that. They can hold their own against plastics, they can hold their own against industrial pollution. but the the haymaker punch is these petrochemicals. And we did the math on it. And it turns out that every three years, do you guys remember the Exxon Valdez? Yeah. Every three years the petrochemical equivalent of the Exxon Valdez goes into our oceans directly from consumer-born petrochemical sunscreen run off. Every three years. Yep. Every three years. MARGUERITE (16:51) No way. Every three years. And you you remember how how upset and how much tension that got back then? And we Yeah. You see those videos, there's heartbreaking watching cleaning the oil off the ducks and all the different animals. And that's crazy that we're doing that willingly. Shannon Kenner (16:58) Yeah. Yeah, all the ducks. yeah. A heart yeah, sure. Yeah. But there and and but but a petch chemical isn't visible like oil is. Yeah, right. MARGUERITE (17:13) Right. Wow. Shannon Kenner (17:15) Every three years. And on the and on the human side, one single use of typical sunscreen is gonna deliver directly to your bloodstream an amount of toxins MARGUERITE (17:16) That's Shannon Kenner (17:26) that you avoid by eating at least an entire year's worth of clean organic food. MARGUERITE (17:32) That's crazy. That's a stat I didn't know. That is absolutely nuts. Yeah. Shannon Kenner (17:33) Yeah. It's because the tic cissy levels are off the charts. ⁓ so if you go to the store and just pick up any old apple or any old tomato, and it's been sprayed with Roundup and it's been washed with water, but you know, there's some remnants. The FDA is gonna allow that to have different depending on the food and depending on the toxin, it's gonna allow somewhere let's say between two and eight parts per million. But let's say your average bite of food That you eat all year long has 10 parts per million of something that's foreign, you know, like Roundup or some sort of toxin that your body, it's gonna not gonna kill you, but your body's gotta do something with it, it's gotta go into your liver, your liver's gotta filter it out, yada yada. average American eats 2,000 pounds of food, and you can do the math on this, that tens part per million is gonna come out to one third of an ounce in the entire Well, one ounce of sunscreen is a typical dose. If you're going out on the beach and you got your legs uncovered, your maybe your chest and your arms and neck and face and nose and everything, feet. Well, one ounce is gonna be a pretty decent coverage. Well, in that one ounce, you're talking 300,000 to 450,000 parts per million. And that parts per million is absorbing through your skin somewhere between 30 and 80 percent. Into your bloodstream. It's not going into your liver, where your liver gets to do its job of filtering things out. It's going directly into the bloodstream. And your body's got to do something with this. It's got to get it out. It's got to process it. And your body does all kinds of things. It's amazing. And especially as when it's young, you know, and it peaks at 22 or whatever. But it can only do so much. And it only can do so much for so long. And as you age, it can do less, it's less fast. And that's why, I mean, some people, I just talked to a guy three days ago. MARGUERITE (18:52) Right. It's even worse. Shannon Kenner (19:14) he's traveling around. He's a he's a computer scientist guy. He's gotten a point where he can travel around these places. And he but he got his first squamous cell when was 25. Most people don't do that, but there are people like that. But certainly, I don't know what the percentage is, but probably by the time you're 60, 80% have some sort of problem that the dermatologist dutifully takes care of. And I love dermatologists. I mean they know what they're doing, but some of them, many of them, have a fairly disinterested approach to the science of sunscreen, which is a shame. But it's it's less and less. There are more and more who who will would never say anything like, just use a good 15 SPF or above. MARGUERITE (19:44) Right. Shannon Kenner (19:51) What are you talking about? You're that's such a glib. I mean, for a person who's expert in skin, yeah. So anyway. MARGUERITE (19:51) Yeah. Mm-hmm. ⁓ So I wanted to mention this too. we talked about how a lot of chemical sunscreens are absorbed into the blood and the concentrations continue to increase with daily use. ⁓ Shannon Kenner (20:07) I didn't see that study. That is that that that really? It they increase? MARGUERITE (20:10) Yes, the concentrations continue to increase with daily use. And so oxybenzone has even been found in breast milk. ⁓ what do you think, what does that mean for someone who's using sunscreen, chemical sunscreen every single day? It's just adding up. Shannon Kenner (20:17) Right. I knew that. Yep. The Big Mac is not going to kill you in a day, but it's going to shorten your lifespan. I mean, oxybenzone is going to shorten your lifespan. I mean, it may be that you're the one in a thousand people that can eat this for lunch and it's not a problem to you. But who knows who that is? And for the average human, it is going to cause you problems. Before 1920, skin cancer kind of didn't exist. They would call in the interns when there was a skin cancer case because it was so rare. then it did tick up once the fifties came after World War II we started spending a little bit more time in the sun and we got away from the farms and rolling up our sleeves and with mass marketing of travel and wearing bathing suits and bikinis and all that kind of stuff, we spent more time in the sun. So skin cancer ticked up, it wasn't exponential. what really got it started. Was in the mid-70s when they started mass marketing the big-time petch chemical sunscreens. And since then, since 1975, on average, Americans have spent per capita inflation adjusted 4% more every year for sunscreens. In that same time, skin cancer rates have tracked right along the side. They're both up about I lose, I've lost count, but it's like 450%. Since that time. They're both up that much. Now, part of that, aging. Baby boomers, they are making more and more old people. And you know, when if in the 1910s, when people died when they were 45 from a stomach ulcer or something, well, they didn't have time to get skin cancer. So that is a part of that. But the annual increase in people 65 and older is only one and a half percent. So four and a half minus one and a half equals two and a half percent. There's so there's two and a half. percent to me, which seems to be relatively unexplained. And I believe that a significant part of that is the bad sunscreen using. They not only give you this ignorant bliss to stay out too long without protecting yourself or putting on war, they actually give you toxic problems. MARGUERITE (22:28) And now we've got everybody staying inside so much and not getting just regular sun exposure. Yeah. And just not we have the body time for Yeah. And that could be solved with like what, twenty minutes? You just go out and get a little bit of sun, right? Twenty minutes a day. Shannon Kenner (22:33) Right, forty percent of Americans have a vitamin D deficiency. Yeah. ⁓ that's what we Sure, yeah. And we actually make we actually make a version. all right. Can I show a product? Yeah. MARGUERITE (22:48) Yeah, go for it. Shannon Kenner (22:52) So these are both the same, they're exact same formulation. This is what it actually is. it's vitamin-enriched sunscreen. It's got not only vitamin E in it, but vitamin D in it. so if you use them one ounce, it'll it theoretically it'll absorb through your skin and your bloodstream and it'll give you your recommended daily allowance of vitamin D, natural vitamin D. And so it's meant to replace what you're body's not making like it should because you're wearing the It's just not. MARGUERITE (23:16) That's genius to add vitamin D in there. Okay. It really is. Yeah. So ⁓ Okay. So let's talk about aerosol specifically. So I don't know if you know who Paul Salandino is, but I said this in one of our last episodes because it was so accurate. He was like, spray, chemical sunscreens, the spray version is like the new secondhand smoke. And I could not agree with that more. Shannon Kenner (23:19) Genius. Yeah. My biochemist is pretty good. Yeah. He's I I couldn't either. Right. MARGUERITE (23:41) And I used to be one of those people. I used to be one of those people that sprayed that on me on the beach and pools. ⁓ so Shannon Kenner (23:46) Right. I mean, how do you want to take your drug? I don't want to shoot up my arm with free base, I'll just smoke the crack pipe. So yeah, it's it's kind of smoking a petrochemical pipe. You know, if you take a can of W D forty, right? And then take a match and spray it, it'll make a blowtorch. MARGUERITE (23:53) Yeah. Yeah. Shannon Kenner (24:06) Right? Take a can of petrochemical sunscreen and try the same thing. It's a blowtorch. MARGUERITE (24:10) my god. Actually w we should do that for one of our videos. Yeah. Well you can do that. Shannon Kenner (24:12) Right. Now it you know, you I mean depending on the we actually put this out here this is years ago. We had our oldest, he was in like ten and we had him do it and so he did this and he's got big gloves on, but it and we weren't trying to monetize it, we were just trying to put it out there on YouTube, like, look at this, this is stark. And then we took our sports stick. MARGUERITE (24:27) Yeah. Shannon Kenner (24:31) And then open that up and then took put a lighter to that and it just doesn't do anything, just to illustrate it. But like the powers that be like, no, you can't show that, that's you know, inciting idiocy. So anyway, but it's true. MARGUERITE (24:42) That's what people need to see though. People need to see that because that's the whole point of us even wanting to do this episode. Because, well, I'm learning so much too. But like most people do not know this. Most of the sunscreens have the chemical filters in it. And I think that if more people did know, like me, to me, this is a complete no brainer of a switch for multiple reasons. So I mean, it's just like Shannon Kenner (25:03) Yeah. There are there are valid reasons for using petch chemical sunscreen. they're cheaper and they're easier to apply. And that's that's true. and they're they don't s they you don't see them on your skin. Now it's oily, it's oily looking, and for many people it causes rashes and it's insane. I mean, there are literally cases of guys that are barbecuing on their grill. MARGUERITE (25:12) Well it goes back to the convenience. Shannon Kenner (25:26) And they're too slathered up with stuff and their skin's I get not spontaneous. The the the petrochemicals flame up on their skin. This happens. Yeah. Cause they're too close and the grill's hot enough where it's just, you know. MARGUERITE (25:34) No kidding. I was gonna ask, did they catch on fire or something? It's just disgusting. That's why you want to put that all over yourself. I think most people would be aware enough to know that what you put on your skin is going to get in your body. And like we just talked about this with Roundup. I said if I have a bottle of Roundup, and I have kids, I put it in a place where they can't access it. But then I'll go spray it all over the yard and let them run around in it and get it all over their skin. Right. It's like you think that same logic with sunscreen. You put in sunscreen all over your body. How do you not think, okay? Shannon Kenner (25:41) It's disgusting. Right. Right. Yeah. MARGUERITE (26:06) Let me make sure at least that there's not something in here that's gonna cause me harm over time. Because we shouldn't have to think about that. Or or just like simply I like I always want to step as far back as possible. And it's like you might not be able to say there's a study that proves that this chemical causes this result, but you do know that this chemical is not good and it's not something that's supposed to go in a human body. Yeah. Right. And like just start there. That's Shannon Kenner (26:27) Yeah. Yeah. It's funny, and we live in a time where it seems like so many of us, there's so many people who don't trust whatever establishment there is out there. I mean, there's so little trust for anything. And I think it's valid. I mean, it's it's it's warranted. It it's it was well earned. But still so many people will buy products. They they it's it's like you know, the the people that run the government, whether whether you like one party or the other, the people that run the government are all humans and they all go to the same parties MARGUERITE (26:43) For sure. Shannon Kenner (26:56) and they make these same rules to protect them and not to go political, but protect themselves and we're all just the chaff, right? But companies are people too and they have a profit motive, which I love. but they're they're humans too, and they're, you know, we're all selfish. We're we're all making up decisions based on what we want to get in life. And for consumers not to realize that companies don't have their best interests at heart necessarily. MARGUERITE (27:20) Right. Shannon Kenner (27:21) It's just surprising. I mean there's yeah. MARGUERITE (27:22) Right. I wanna support the companies that do. Exactly. Yeah. So Shannon Kenner (27:27) I do too. Like Waxhead, sure. Yeah, so ⁓ leads me into one thing. So there are three kinds of sunscreen companies. The big ones, immense teams of biochemists, it can do anything in a lab, make some incredibly clever products. Problem is they'll sell anything that's legal and that someone who's uninformed will buy. on the other hand, God love them, well-meaning amateurs, they're trying their best. they've read a lot on the internet. they put things like carrot suit oil because they read somewhere that it's good for you, and it is. Not on skin that's hit by UV energy, because the rich vitamin A encourages the damaged cells to reproduce before the body fixes them. they put things like essential oils in their formulations because it's they're good for you. Again, they in a different way, they get in the way of The active ingredients doing their job as well. so they don't really know what they're doing. They're I can't say that they're bad products. They're good products. They're just not great products. in the middle, you have, I would say of any size, I don't know, five to fifteen maybe companies like us that know what they're doing from a biochemistry standpoint, but don't compromise It's rare that I see a product as good as ours, honestly. I know, hey, wow, a guy thinks he's the best. Big surprise. you'll see a lot of products. they'll have zinc oxide. Some of them will have nano zinc oxide in it. some of them will have less zinc oxide than they need to have the true SPF they're saying is broad spectrum. you'll you'll see a 30 SPF product and it'll have 8% zinc oxide. Like you're not getting 30 from 8. what they do is they'll add anti-inflammatories within the inactives and suppress the red reaction. And that the the SPF test is two guys in a lab looking at color swatches and compare it to a skin color. Hey, Larry, is this more like the number two or number three shade of magenta? it's not an exact process. It's free it's fairly accurate, but it is it is susceptible to gaming. If you can slow that red reaction, because that's what they're looking at. They're not testing it in a deep way. And the deep tissue coverage is in a sense, what's the word? It's extrapolated from other things. It's not a direct like, there's this protection at this at this level. and so you're able to game it and and you get that disconnect between this, not it's happening as fast on the skin, but it's not really protecting down low. There's nothing wrong in itself with an anti-inflammatory, but it's giving you an ignorant bliss. Whereas zinc oxide, flat absorption curve, it covers same high rate all the way through UVB and UVA. And so if you start to get damaged down below wearing zinc oxide, you're also gonna start to feel a little bit on your surface. And that's gonna be your cue to have lunch, put on a hat, roll up your sleeve, put on more. Yeah. MARGUERITE (29:56) Closed back on. have you seen a uptick in sales and interest in the product over the last like year or so? Shannon Kenner (30:03) this year we're up, let me see. So we sell mainly through our website and through Amazon. but we're we're up forty percent over last year. we we took a we took a we took a pretty good turn downturn in COVID. I remember the day, I think it was March thirteenth. You know, we were going up and up and up and up, and then you saw MARGUERITE (30:11) People were hearing. Yeah. And then 'cause nobody's allowed to go outside. Shannon Kenner (30:23) And ⁓ we were able to get we were able to get through that. but you know, we have two employees, my wife and me, and then our our biochemist who makes this stuff for us. He makes it he makes it only for us. so we're small, we're unfunded, if you will. We don't have investors. I want to make the best product based on true scientific knowledge and And I I we tell ourselves, I mean, gosh, there's gotta be in the US alone, what would you say? How many people you think in the US if they knew about what we're talking about, would say, Holy cow, I want wax head? Twenty million? Fifty million? MARGUERITE (30:55) I don't know, but a lot. Yeah, I would think a lot. Sure. Yeah. How do you get yeah. Yeah. That's a million dollar. Yeah, so we're open to do. Yeah. Shannon Kenner (30:58) I mean at le at least ten million. Of course, I mean how do you f how do you get How do you communicate with I mean that mean yeah, right. But anyway, so we get by talking to guys like you and you know, we I I really appreciate what you guys are doing. I mean, yeah. MARGUERITE (31:09) so I do want to ask this because I think that this is important too. So back to the aerosols. beyond the chemical filter ingredients, there are multiple layers of concern, like including inhalation. risks and the propellant toxicity. There's also the benzene contamination finding and independent testing found that in 27% of aerosols sunscreens that were tested, somewhere at three times more the FDA concentration limit. So benzene is a recognized carcinogen. It's linked to leukemia. And so how how does that even end up in sunscreen in the first place? Shannon Kenner (31:26) ⁓ sure, yeah. It ends up because of cross contamination within the factories that are made. I mean, that's one thing we're out of. the person that manufactures our stuff and they're a legit manufacturing place, but they don't have anything like that in that facility. it's pure. MARGUERITE (31:58) That's just such a big discrepancy because it's like I said, it's a carcinogen. Like, hello. So Shannon Kenner (32:01) Sure. Right. And I'm sure and I'm sure on paper these companies have some sort of like, okay, here's our procedure that we use. But when Joe, the manager of the VAT that's got to get it going, I mean, he's got production realities that he doesn't have time, or maybe his manager looks the other way and says, Hey, you know, it's on paper it says this, but in practice. MARGUERITE (32:11) Yeah. Shannon Kenner (32:27) Obviously in practice things are getting into these products. MARGUERITE (32:30) Is it possible to have a zinc oxide sunscreen in it, like a spray at least? that's not toxic. Shannon Kenner (32:38) Sure. it's not it's not really gonna be an aerosol spray. I think I get the brand mix up. I think it's called Garden Goddess And they make a nice zinc oxide spray. but it's gonna spray on and then you still have to rub it around. You know, like whereas an aerosol petrochemical, again, I get it, the convenience is wonderful. The convenience is wonderful. You spray it on and you're good to go. I mean, how quick is that? How effortless is that? At a huge cost. MARGUERITE (32:49) Right. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. And I sometimes I wonder if it gets unevenly. Shannon Kenner (33:02) Health wise. But and I ha we have friends. I mean, and you know, they we you know we like each other, we get along, we go to dinner together and stuff, and they're not idiots. but a few of them they use they use the aerosol. I'm not gonna be all preachy to my friend and say, Hey, you shouldn't be doing do. He you know, I mean, life's too short, and and I don't I don't begrudge him one bit. you know, we we all do things. I mean, some people smoke. MARGUERITE (33:11) yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Shannon Kenner (33:28) People get tattoos. I mean heck, I don't eat as well as I should, you know? ⁓ we all have our things. Tweets are own, yeah, yeah. MARGUERITE (33:33) Yeah, exactly. We all have our things. To each their own. I don't I think everyone I know uses the aerosol sunscreen. And the and the biggest complaint they have is that if they get whatever you would apply by rubbing it on or something like yours is that they get that white film on their skin. The white cast. Right. The white cast. Yeah, that's what I was gonna ask about because that is one of the hesitations people may have from switching from chemical sunscreen to Shannon Kenner (33:47) Uh-huh. MARGUERITE (33:56) mineral sunscreen. Should not be the hesitation, but white cast and like the texture. Shannon Kenner (33:59) We call it we call it the badge of smart living. MARGUERITE (34:03) I love it. That's perfect. I love it too. So do Shannon Kenner (34:05) I mean, we love beast mode surfers that'll just wear it on their face. It's like, my gosh. one of our earliest affiliates you know guys who encourage us and he actually he goes and touts our stuff and he uses it. Guy's name is Jason Latham, he's a beast surfer. He does stand-up paddle board. I think he's in the top twenty in the world. He goes all over the world and does stuff. He's just he's just MARGUERITE (34:09) Yeah. Shannon Kenner (34:25) Unbelievably athletic and tall and just a beautiful physical specimen, right? And he's just a beast out there wearing all this stuff on his face. And it's like, wow, that is there's nothing better than an unapologetic, I'm using this and I'm doing the thing I love and I'm and I'm being so smart and healthy about it. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. MARGUERITE (34:36) I love it. Yeah. It's a role model right there. Yeah. Do you have any tips to kind of help with that? Shannon Kenner (34:47) if it's your concern, and again it's a trade off, they're tinted versions and we're not the only ones that make tinted zinc sunscreen. But we make this is our tinted every day. Do you really? How do you like it? Does it have a dewy finish? I've been told it has a dewy finish. Yeah. MARGUERITE (34:56) on my face right now. I love it. A little bit. I mean it kind of depends. Sometimes my face can be a little dry. It is not greasy or anything and I don't have obviously there's not a white cast with the tinted. But even the untinted, I didn't notice a big white cast. Maybe I'll score some points here, but I'm sitting right next to you and it looks great. Thanks. Yeah. Shannon Kenner (35:06) Okay. Right. Right. But yeah. Nice. It does. I think you look great. so the everyday and we're not really a makeup company. We're and we don't we like to say that we're not a spa or luxury brand, we're an elite brand. I feel we feel like things that are a luxury. it's like a McMansion. It's not really luxury. MARGUERITE (35:31) Mansion? Shannon Kenner (35:33) Like that stacked stone is just a facade. and so the luxury products and the spa products out there at many times, It's a facade. It's a horrible product that many disinterested dermatologists shill through their office. And it's just as bad as any of them. It's formulated in a way that's wonderful, and the patients think, this is so nice, and man, my dermatologist in the lab coat recommended it. Meanwhile, it's terrible stuff. ⁓ yeah. MARGUERITE (35:47) I used that before. That's exactly what happened to me. That's all branding and kickbacks. Shannon Kenner (35:59) you don't have to look like a geisha girl wearing zinc oxide sunscreen, but you are gonna need to have it on so that you can actually see it a bit. There needs to be a little bit of a noticeable haze. Otherwise you don't have enough on, it's not really gonna do enough of the job. then you the tinted version, but you just need to realize that it can transfer to fabric. And the things that we use in ours at least, I don't know if like does normal other so called makeup, does that stain clothing? MARGUERITE (36:23) yeah, if you do it doesn't stain it permanently, but like if I give a hug or something, it'll get on a shirt. Yeah. Shannon Kenner (36:26) Right. It'll it'll come out. Right. So I mean I think it's the same thing with our sunscreens, except our sunscreen I mean, our everyday use is iron oxides. That's what makes your blood red. So it's gonna stain Yeah. Right, exactly the melasmerite. So it's a nice value add. and then with our tinted sport that has cocoa in it. So these things stain and they're they're suspended in oils. They're suspended in either coconut oil or jojoba slash olive oil. MARGUERITE (36:36) Yes, and I love that with melasma. Shannon Kenner (36:53) And that's gonna get on fabric, and it may or may not be able to be laundered out perfectly depending on your ability and stuff that you're using for laundry. MARGUERITE (37:01) Yeah. But you know, I was putting it on my daughter the other day. And I think that just kind of like warming it up and blending it in helps a lot. Yeah. ⁓ and I did have a Yeah. Shannon Kenner (37:09) Okay. Right. Okay. That takes time, you know, and people don't wanna I mean I get it, man. You just wanted to quit grab a go, you got other things to do. But yeah. MARGUERITE (37:19) Yeah. But this is just a part of life. I mean, it's not that big of a deal. Like I'm very busy, okay? I have two little kids. I'm starting a business. Like I'm very busy too, but I will take time to put freaking sunscreen on. It's like w d you got other things to do, but are they more important than having those big issues later in life? Right. Protect your life. okay. I wanted to see if you could just kind of in the simplest terms, Shannon Kenner (37:22) It's what you decide is important. Sure. Right. MARGUERITE (37:41) explain what the difference is between chemical sunscreen and mineral sunscreen, like how it works on the skin. Shannon Kenner (37:46) Okay. I used to know that how chemical sunscreen worked, but I don't exactly know that the exact process that works with chemical sunscreen. the basics of it is that it basically absorbs the UV energy, it converts it and just it leaves it there and it changes it chemically and it doesn't really get it away from your body in the way that zinc oxide. way that zinc oxide works. And zinc oxide in relation to UV energy in humans, it's just an amazing compound. When UV energy hits it through a process called band gap absorption, the energy hits the molecule, you got electrons spinning around the nucleus, and those electrons are excited and they spin up to higher orbit rates. And it's not a continuous thing, it's like Here's orbit one, here's orbit two, here's orbit three. it goes up in scale. And so as the UV energy goes away, it clicks back down. And at the end of the process, it's unchanged. It didn't attrite, it didn't dissipate. it keeps doing the same thing. It didn't break apart. It's still the same engine. ⁓ it doesn't degrade, right? And so and that MARGUERITE (38:50) It doesn't degrade like Shannon Kenner (38:53) And that process band gaps absorption. So it absorbs the energy, and when it does this, it releases infrared heat, which is perfectly fine for humans. And it that infrared heat radiates away from the body. That's that's how zinc oxide works. It doesn't, you know, people, it's semantics, but people like to say it's a physical barrier. It isn't, it's a chemical process. It and that chemical process, band gap absorption, does that with the UV energy. I mean, yeah, that's reflecting. It's reflecting the rays. it converts them to infrared heat. by saying it reflects the rays, it's sort of implying that UV energy UVA ray hits, UVA ray bounces off. No. UVA ray is absorbed, converted to infrared heat, and that goes away. It doesn't really matter, but that's the difference. So and the thing so the thing about zinc oxide is MARGUERITE (39:29) Right. Okay. Okay. Shannon Kenner (39:41) it's not gonna interact with anything except the UV energy. non-nano is not gonna absorb into your bloodstream because it's not it's too big. The the rocks are too big to get through your pores and such. If it did, there's never been a definitive study one way or the other that says that zinc oxide getting into your bloodstream is bad. but until that time, we kind of take the European mindset of until it's proven safe. We are going to avoid it. And so that's that's one reason why we only use non-nano, Now, a lot of companies, like the biggies, they'll say this is clear zinc oxide or shear zinc oxide. They do that by grinding it up into really tiny particles, and you get a ton of particles that are smaller than a millionth of a meter, a nanometer. And they're small enough to not only get into your bloodstream, but more importantly, they're small enough to get into marine life. And it's toxic to a lot of marine life. and again, reef safe is not regulated. but really the only truly reefsafe thing is something that uses either titanium and or zinc oxide, and those versions are not nano. I don't think they're make anything that's nano titanium dioxide because you don't really grinding titanium dioxide up, but zinc oxide you can, and my hunch is that. Ground up zinc oxide is safe for humans. But again, until we know that, we're not gonna fool with it. But really it's more about the reefs. It's more, it's more about the marine life. And so those big rocks, once they slough off a user's skin, will fall to the bottom of the riverbed or fall to the bottom of the ocean floor or be pushed around. they'll be their own separate little thing for the next billion years. They'll never change unless they go through a nuclear explosion or something like that. MARGUERITE (40:58) Right. Shannon Kenner (41:18) ⁓ but they won't interact. And so that's it's MARGUERITE (41:18) Right, okay. Shannon Kenner (41:21) Pretty pretty doggone perfect from every consideration. Zinc o zinc oxide is. The only drawback is it's white. MARGUERITE (41:24) Yeah, yeah. What is it so the difference So the differences between non nano zinc and zinc oxide is the particle size? Shannon Kenner (41:34) That's right. And a lot of times you'll see, well, sometimes you'll see a product that'll say zinc oxide. And you'll think, it must be nano. But then if you look deeper, it's literally not they say they have literally non-nano zinc oxide. And it's like they they're using it, but they're not they're touting it. So it's like, do you not understand that this is important? So I I don't know that I would if if I were making something with non-nano zek oxide, I would tell people it's non-nano zinc oxide because it's important to people like you, to people like me. It it matters, yeah. MARGUERITE (41:52) Right, right. 'Cause yeah, 'cause that's not no, yeah. Right. Well that's superior. Right, yeah, right. That makes sense. And I noticed that a lot of the brands that have like mineral sunscreens, they just use nano zinc. Is it because rather than non nano zinc or zinc oxide? Is it just because it's cheaper or just the manufacturing process is easier? Shannon Kenner (42:16) I don't you know, I've never even priced nano zinc oxide. I don't know that it's cheaper, it may be, but I'm pretty sure that they use it because they're trying to make it less white on the skin. The feeling is that when it's ground up in tiny particles, it can it's easier to smooth out and it's it's not as white. And again, I understand that too. it's a valid reason. MARGUERITE (42:25) Right. what about people with deeper skin tones? do you think that there's like a solution coming for that or even like with the tinted sunscreens? Yeah. Shannon Kenner (42:40) You mean to match their skin colors? You know, we've considered it, there is I think at the comp I think the company's actually called Black Girl Sunscreen, and I think they're fairly successful. I do know that African Americans get skin cancer twenty percent as much as Caucasians. So it is a myth that dark skinned people can't get skin cancer or don't get skin cancer. They get it. They just don't get it as much. MARGUERITE (42:50) Okay. Shannon Kenner (43:04) But it is there, it's just less of a risk. but it is still important. we have a medium this is our medium tent and this is our light tent. So this we designed this one for what we say stereotypical Avran Caucasian skin tone. And this one is a little bit bronzier, darker, and we design that more for an olive or a darker skin tone, but we don't have anything for for darker skin. we may, we just don't we don't know that we're gonna be able to understand that market I'm just I'm hesitant. I don't know. I mean I yeah. MARGUERITE (43:32) Right. No, I see that. Does the sunscreen expire? Shannon Kenner (43:38) Great question. the FDA, the way the FDA regulates it, they say they want everything to have an expiration date. So three years from purchase, or three years from manufacture, I should say. zinc oxide never expires. It's gonna work the same now in a thousand years or a million years. Now, the inactive ingredients may dry out. MARGUERITE (43:39) really thought about it. Shannon Kenner (43:54) They might go rancid theoretically. but when your inactive ingredients are things like beeswax, which they've they found unspoiled beeswax in urns from Egypt. I mean it's it lasts. Yeah. Yeah. And then you've got olive oil, jojoba oil, coconut oil, ⁓ shea butter, and then you've got zinc oxide, which is a natural antimicrobial. I wear I wear our sport sunscreen as deodorant. MARGUERITE (44:05) Yeah. Yeah. yeah, that honey never it never I know honey never expires. So Shannon Kenner (44:24) And I and I can go now for days. I don't, but if I like forget or something, I have a I have this theory that I think that modern deodorants, and again I'm gonna sound like a tree hugger right now, but I think that modern deodorants have a component in them that makes you smell sooner rather than later, so that you'll reapply every day or at night. MARGUERITE (44:24) Okay. Shannon Kenner (44:50) It it's like it's almost like a time thing, Like a like an alarm goes off and like, ⁓ you need to put it on again. But the but the zin the antimicrobials in in zinc oxide, they kill and stop the bacteria from growing that actually calls over. MARGUERITE (44:55) Yeah. Shannon Kenner (45:04) Yeah, and so our our MARGUERITE (45:05) I always I never really thought about that. Shannon Kenner (45:07) active stuff our inactive stuff's never gonna spell. We I've got a tube from twenty seventeen, one of our first tubes, and it's fine. Yeah. But but the FDA says everything has to have an expiration date. ⁓ and that and that's because of petrochemicals. Petrochemicals do need a expiration date. They lose their potency just sitting on a shelf. Now I don't know about I don't know about Tena Sor, but MARGUERITE (45:13) Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah, I about that in food. So I like, hmm. Shannon Kenner (45:29) Bimatrisinol, but they they attract very quickly. MARGUERITE (45:32) and I know that they degrade too. Like if you leave your bottle of sunscreen in the car or something, chemical sunscreen degrade, but non nano zinc doesn't, Shannon Kenner (45:36) Sure. Yeah. That's right. It's never going to change. It's always going to be there with its band gap absorption capability to to to absorb, convert, and reflect infrared heat away from human skin. one of the things that FDA does regulate, water resistance. that's why you'll see on the shelves 80 minutes very water resistant. That's legally, that's the most you'll ever see. Cause that's the FDA limit. MARGUERITE (46:01) I saw that on your website actually. Waterproof is not it's not possible to be waterproof or sweat proof. So that's a term that isn't allowed, right? Yeah. Shannon Kenner (46:07) Sure. Yeah, well pro I mean waterproof means it's never you're never going to lose any sort of coverage because of either water or sweat. So the test for that is they test for SPF. So let's say case of our sports tech, our sport paste, it's the SPF thirty, very thick paste. they test the SPF, come back thirty, and then they soak the tested body part for eighty minutes in water, and then they retest the SPF. And it's got to get at least 80% of the original. So that means in the case of a 30, we need to come back with at least a 24. Well, after 80 minutes, ours is still over 29. It barely moved off a 30. It's not they're not enough hours. Even if you went to Alaska in summer and the sun never went down, you're not going to get down to 24. But we can't legally say, and we wouldn't want to say all day coverage or waterproof or anything. I mean, I would never suggest, especially to somebody who's out doing heavy yard work and sweating like crazy in Florida or surfing. Hey, don't bother reapplying after three hours. but if you forget that there are too many greats, if there are too many sets coming in and you can't get in, it can save you some heartache because it's got a lot of staying power. and I'm not saying we're the only water resistant sunscreen that has that attribute. I'm sure probably maybe all of the zinc oxide base are probably ones that say they're the ones that are water resistant are probably MARGUERITE (47:05) You'll be okay. Shannon Kenner (47:24) highly water resistant. Now ours is water resistant because our sport, it has beeswax in it. A lot of beeswax. It's thick, you know, and sometimes we get people saying, gosh, it it's still showing up in my pores after I shower. It's like, well, good. I mean, I I'm sorry that I mean and I'm not unsympathetic, but it's working, MARGUERITE (47:35) Yeah. Shannon Kenner (47:41) man. Yeah, you know, it's hard to get off. you know, you're MARGUERITE (47:43) Yeah. Shannon Kenner (47:44) have to use some more yeah. MARGUERITE (47:44) How about with with the hand in speaking on that, how about with your hands? Like when you're applying it, is it really difficult to get off of your fingers? Or same as any anything else? Shannon Kenner (47:51) ⁓ I don't think so. I think you just wipe it on a towel. But yeah, it's it's it's gonna be there. I mean unless you wipe it on a towel or something. you know, like when I put on my deodorant in the morning, I rub it on my underarms and then I go over to my towel and rub it off and it's fine. It's coconut oil and beeswax. How horrible to be on your skin. Yeah, and it's not sticky, I mean, MARGUERITE (48:05) And you're good. Yeah. So no worries. Right. Shannon Kenner (48:13) Yep. MARGUERITE (48:14) Is the non yano zinc does the zinc concentration is that what is contributing to that? It to the texture or even the weight cast, is it the concentration? Okay. Shannon Kenner (48:22) Yes. I mean and we use twenty five. So for whatever reason the US has a legal limit of twenty five percent and that's what we use. You'll I've seen a couple of small companies, maybe even mid sized companies that are using twenty five, but it's rare that you see that. You'll see twenty a lot, you'll see twenty two, you'll see twenty three, and then you'll see the ones that are like eight, twelve, and then they're adding other junk. but yeah, twenty five is the most and our lip balm, which technically isn't a sunscreen because we MARGUERITE (48:40) Right. Right. Right. Shannon Kenner (48:48) Have never had paid to have it tested for SPF. So we don't advertise it as SPF. But we know the math, and it's going to give you between an 18 and 20 SPF on our on our lip balm. Our lip balm we designed not only to protect you from the UV energy, but it's got super fine lanolin in it, like breastfeeding moms use that for relief. And it's got vitamin E in it, and then the beeswax and shea butter. it's a very reparative thing while it's protecting you. MARGUERITE (48:57) Okay. Shannon Kenner (49:15) but if somebody wanted more SPF and they're using our products on their lips, just use our sport. You can use any of our stuff on your lips. It's all edible great stuff. You could eat our sunscreen. It wouldn't taste good, but it's it's not yeah. Yeah. I mean it smells more like our our and you sent you did you get our sample pack? What did you what did you have or just our just our tendon? MARGUERITE (49:26) Great. I saw it was all food grade. We'll have to test that out. I got the tinted I got the small tinted one to try it and then I got the regular just like no tint, just like for the kids. Well and for us, but especially for the kids. so those are the two I got. Shannon Kenner (49:41) Okay, okay, okay. So they're three and five. I don't think that they're gonna be able to care much about whether their skin looks white or not when they're in the pool. MARGUERITE (49:50) No, they don't care, but I did. Shannon Kenner (49:52) I just just I'll send you one. I'll send you a tube of our baby or I can it's it's vitamin vitamin rich the same thing. it's got some beeswax in it. It is water resistant as well. It's not as water resistant as our sport. but also that vitamin D and vitamin E in there, ⁓ your kid's skin's gonna love it. A lot of people will say that it's a that it cured their eczema. It didn't cure it, but it is a great eczema tree. MARGUERITE (50:08) think that's a really so when I found you, I thought 'cause you know, I'm not like stressing out about it or anything, but I do try to avoid seed oils in my products and stuff. And when I found you, I was like, wow, this is very intriguing that you guys use an olive oil base. and I thought that was a differentiator alone, but the vitamin D in my opinion is too, 'cause I have never noticed that in sunscreens. That's that's a really, really big deal. Shannon Kenner (50:32) It is. Yeah. Right. I mean y MARGUERITE (50:37) 'Cause that's the biggest thing that people say about I was I was just thinking the same thing too, 'cause it's almost like your products are not just, you know, defense or to help you with the sun, but it's actually good for your body. It's like having a supplement. Yeah. But the problem is with people Yeah. It's completely genuine. So if you can tell. Shannon Kenner (50:50) You guys it's like you guys are my PR team. I mean like ⁓ we we've s I know, I can tell. I mean you guys are great. So well, North Carolina, right? So I MARGUERITE (51:00) Yeah. Shannon Kenner (51:00) It's a hundred in in North Carolina? Wow. Okay, gosh, it's not that hot then. MARGUERITE (51:02) Yeah, yeah, hitting hundred today. Yeah, it's it's huge. We're tied to Florida too. He grew up in Florida before he was he came to North Carolina and my dad lives in Florida. Yeah. Shannon Kenner (51:09) Okay. Okay, so my wife is from Ormond Beach, it's near Daytona. she goes at least once a year with her dad, my father in law, to the Everglades and they go fishing. Like, that sounds horrible. I wanna hate it. So hot. The bugs. ⁓ but anyway, you were saying about the you know, it's good for your body. I think most consumers do understand this, they feel like they especially with more and more talk about sunscreens and what ones are good and which ones are bad. MARGUERITE (51:20) Nice. yes. Yeah. Hot but nice. Shannon Kenner (51:36) The public does have a little bit of awareness of it. But and they think, well, you know, it's it's not great to put on your body, but it it does this job and you're not wearing it every day, you know, but it's it's not great, but that's okay. ⁓ MARGUERITE (51:45) Yeah. Yeah. Shannon Kenner (51:48) but where but this stuff this is actually nutritious. It's like your your body's eating it and enjoying it. Like it's all it's good. It's good for you. It really is. Well the so like, you know, the natural bug repellent. Unfortunately, the natural bug repellent, it's good for you, but it doesn't really do a very good job a in a lot for a lot of cases. and so I shy away from comparing our stuff to natural bug repellent because our stuff does a better job than any of its kind out there. the only possible thing I would think that could be better is if somebody added MARGUERITE (52:05) Yeah. No. Shannon Kenner (52:18) Titanium dioxide along with zinc oxide. Like if you did 25% zinc oxide and some sort of small percentage of titanium dioxide to get to say 50 or if you could get to 70 there would be a disconnect, but you're still pretty doggone protected. And I think about doing stuff like that because you know, again, someone who doesn't know, they're on a shelf and they say, ⁓ well, that's only 30. ⁓ 50 is better, and 50 is better. MARGUERITE (52:33) Mm-hmm. I I had a Shannon Kenner (52:42) out for five hours, that's 300 minutes. You take 300 and divide it by 50, that's the equivalent of six minutes of unprotected coverage. If you're wearing a 30, it's the equivalent of 10 minutes of unprotected coverage. So 10 minutes versus six, I mean, unless you're immunocompromised, or some other sort of health problem. 10 minutes of sun is MARGUERITE (52:52) Okay. Shannon Kenner (52:59) So 30's plenty. You never need more than 30. You never you don't really need more than 30. You don't. MARGUERITE (52:59) That SPF is something I never understood. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want more than thirty because I do want to get a little bit of color too. I'm extremely fair skinned. So give me some color. Shannon Kenner (53:10) You're getting color wearing thirty? How long how long are you staying out in the sun? MARGUERITE (53:15) so all throughout the winter I was not wearing sunscreen. But then I started wearing like a natural version of retinol, it's bacachol and then I would go out, even just taking my kids to school. My melasma started popping up again. And so I would that's when I started looking for sunscreens and recognize yours because I didn't like how my other sunscreen was it was giving me like peeling. But anyways, that's why I really like the iron oxides in your sunscreen. Yeah. Cause Shannon Kenner (53:33) Yeah. Right. For the Melas, but sure, yeah. So not wearing sunscreen is not a dumb thing. Yeah. I mean either God made us for the sun or we evolved for the sun. It can't be anything else. We're we humans are made for the sun. we've lived for thousands of years in the sun, successfully. I mean, all our life here is based on the sun, and we are based on the sun MARGUERITE (53:45) I like unfiltered suns too. I'm Right. Shannon Kenner (54:04) Again, I'm not tugging any trees, but it's just true. And ⁓ and MARGUERITE (54:07) It's true. The sun gives me life. I've I've never worn I've never been big with sunscreen my whole life until recently, you know, trying to 'cause now there's cleaner products out there and it's a little bit safer and better for me. So yeah. Trying to do better now, but the sun just is like it re reinvigorates you. It does. I Shannon Kenner (54:12) Right. Right. Yeah. And I Right. Yeah, I mean I would say go just go outside. You know, put the phone down. Put the phone down, go MARGUERITE (54:23) yeah. Shannon Kenner (54:28) don't have your phone in your pocket. you guys I know I'm hey, do as I say, not as I do, right? ⁓ but I've tr MARGUERITE (54:31) Yeah, no, I'm terrible at Yeah, right, exactly. No, that drives me nuts. So there's a colon cancer risks with that. Mm-hmm. Shannon Kenner (54:40) But I have recently, I mean the last year, I'm doing a better job of like if we go out to eat, I will leave my phone at the house and it felt really weird. like, my gosh, somebody can't get in touch with me? Who cares? in the nineteen eighties and nineties nobody could get in touch with you, and we were all fine. And it it's made us so and we're always and MARGUERITE (54:56) Right. Right. And ninety nine percent of the stuff is just a distraction. Yeah. It's not something you need at the time. Shannon Kenner (55:03) Right. And the and the mental poison of all that's happening out in the world is always a fingertip away. It's like k and like yeah. MARGUERITE (55:09) Yeah. absolutely. How can I ruin my mood right now? Let's look at my phone. I one hundred million percent agree. Shannon Kenner (55:13) Yeah. I ran I ran, dang it, dang it, I ran, come on. MARGUERITE (55:18) Yeah. Going outside though, that's the best wellness tip. Everybody says that. Everybody we ask. That's what we feel too. I'll tell you, even after after a long day, like stressed out, feeling like tight and all that bad stuff, just feet in the ground and getting some sun, it just like your body just relaxes. It just feels so much better. Shannon Kenner (55:26) Yeah. Or go outside. Yeah. Yeah. Well and Carrie, my that's my wife Carrie. she's like taking off your shoes and step actually touching a grounding, t there's something about the magnetic core or something. It's like, yeah, that sounds pretty cool, dude. I like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. MARGUERITE (55:42) Grounding. Yes. Yes, we're very big grounding family for sure. we're actually wanna do a episode on that too, Shannon Kenner (55:54) Okay. MARGUERITE (55:52) I just have a couple more questions for you and then I will let you go. Okay. So I wanted to know what your opinion is on so many products that have SPF built in, like moisturizers or foundations, lip glosses. Do you think that's legitimate protection? Kind of like the two in one in makeup. Shannon Kenner (56:08) I think yeah, it can be. Depend I mean, but it just depends on the formulation, just depends the ingredients. it's not a broad brush answer if they're a good or they're or they're bad. I mean they could if if they're if they're pets are chemical based products, then absolutely no. But if there's some sort of zinc oxide or even titanium dioxide component, and then with this tennis orb come along, I mean, they'll be better than they were. They'll they'll be less bad. I mean, I have to admit that. At least from everything that I know. MARGUERITE (56:15) It's better than nothing. Shannon Kenner (56:31) It's not as good. It's like a health again, it's a it's a healthier fast food. MARGUERITE (56:35) Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to ask you about tattoos. I have a little tattoo here. So I was like with tattoo and mineral sunscreen, is there any differences on like how it behaves or works when you put it on tattoos or anything that anyone should know who has tattoos? Shannon Kenner (56:50) I think that I think that tattoos are an injury to your to your body, And y y you know what I'm saying, right? Okay, sure, sure. But it's something it's you know, they're they're doing something, it's invading, right? And I'm not a tattoo expert by any means, but I just think, you know, just in general, you've done something to put some sort of stress on the body, and I just think that that makes it more important to go ahead and protect that skin that has been MARGUERITE (56:56) I have non toxic ink, okay. I use non toxic ink on mine. Yeah, yeah. Shannon Kenner (57:18) whatever you want call it, affected, injured. even after it heals, I think especially when it's in the healing process. and zinc oxide helps with preventing infection, any kind of stuff like that. I do know tattoos can get infected depending on the the person or the the operator. MARGUERITE (57:25) Yeah. Shannon Kenner (57:34) ⁓ yeah, but they need protection at least as much as on changed skin. That'll be my take. MARGUERITE (57:40) Yeah. I always put like a little bomb of just straight up coconut oil on it before I go to bed because or even chea butter because ⁓ I don't want it to get like even though it's like not even an inch, I don't want it to get like stretched. It's my family's initials. Shannon Kenner (57:44) Mm. Yeah. Sure. Right. I mean you you in you invested in it, you want to take care of it. Right. Yeah. Nothing wrong with there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah. MARGUERITE (57:57) for sure. I just wanted Shannon Kenner (58:00) before I forget, you guys know EWG, right? Environmental environmental working group. I think they're very, very good. I think they're agnostic, they're as agnostic as can be. For some reason, well, they are for Tennisorb. the MARGUERITE (58:02) Yes. Shannon Kenner (58:14) Timis Bematrisinol, they're they are they are they are proponents of that. They've been pushing for it for years and they are happy about this. I disagree with them about it, but I think that they're very, very good. And I think for any person who's wondering about is this product okay? Is that product okay? Go to the ingredient list. And if there's anything that you don't know, take the time to look it up in their database. They have a skin deep database and it'll tell you, I think it's from a one to ten scale, ten being the worst. One is the best. If if that ingredient, how how good that ingredient is. and I think anything, I think anything higher than a four, there are other options, you know. And there's tens out stick to only ones. Our stuff is only ones, we only make. MARGUERITE (58:45) It's a great resource. I would agree, yeah. Shannon Kenner (58:55) We we used to have the second highest number of ones of any company out there. I think we're now third or fourth because we just haven't kept introducing products. Because like how many ways do want to introduce these things? but we have a lot of choices for people who are wanting to choose. We even have a we we we don't sell anymore because the FDA reached out to us and says you we don't want you to sell this. And the FDA is scary. MARGUERITE (59:05) Right. Sure. Shannon Kenner (59:16) It's a it's a body wash that has zinc oxide infused into the jojoba oil. it's a saponified, like a Dr. Bronner's type soap, and it's got zinc oxide within the jojoba oil. And it'll give you about a four to five SPF. We designed it theoretically for guys who are balding, because guys who are balding, I never knew, like, and it makes sense, they don't want to put sunscreen on their scalp because that's nasty. ⁓ nobody does, right? Not your hair. MARGUERITE (59:40) No. No one does. Shannon Kenner (59:44) And so it's basically you you wash it on it'll give about a four to five. And that it doesn't sound like a lot, but I a a five is a eighty percent reduction and so it'll take the edge off of burns. But the FDA said, you know, it implied like no it it does exactly what I mean, it's it's amazing to me that there's so many things out there that are bad for people, but yet the FDA comes after people who know what they're MARGUERITE (59:59) It's yeah. Shannon Kenner (1:00:07) doing. So we're like we didn't fight it. We were like, Okay, done. MARGUERITE (1:00:08) You're right. It's a very interesting organization, that's for sure. Yes. Shannon Kenner (1:00:14) my gosh. Yeah. MARGUERITE (1:00:16) with the sunscreen exposure debate, I was gonna ask you about vitamin D, but I guess we kind of nip that because you have vitamin D in your sunscreen. But we also do have like the nitric oxide conversation where research suggests that applying sunscreen, which blocks UV light, can inhibit skin based production of nitric oxide, which is linked to cardiovascular health and blood pressure regulation. So the wellness Shannon Kenner (1:00:22) Right. Yeah. MARGUERITE (1:00:38) community says, you know, let's get some unfiltered sun for vitamin D and now nitric oxide. but the dermatology community obviously says we're sunscreened. We don't want to be getting skin cancer here. So where does the truth land? what does a balanced approach look like? Shannon Kenner (1:00:50) I'm just thinking I'm just thinking MARGUERITE (1:00:50) certain times of the day? Shannon Kenner (1:00:52) I'm just thinking, would Marguerite like to join our advisors? I mean, you're you're really no, I'm s I mean I'm I'm serious. I mean you're very good at at getting to you know, some important MARGUERITE (1:00:57) Yeah. She's the expert on our side I guess really I'm curious if there's like what is the balance of getting unfiltered sun and when you need to wear sunscreen? Is it the UV rays? Is it particular times of the day? Like, can I walk out and drive my kids to school at nine in the morning? And do I have to worry about like getting skin cancer or can I wait until like two to put it on? Shannon Kenner (1:01:26) No, no, and it's yeah, you're dead right on that. I mean I mean before say ten AM, you're good to go. And like, yeah, what what's the thing where if you get up early in the morning and your eye is exposed to early morning light, I mean again, either God made us for this or we evolved for it. I mean I don't I don't it's above my pay grade, but we're made for it. And and so when you get the early morning light, you sleep better, you go to sleep sooner, you wake up in the morning and so it I mean there that's that's that's real science. MARGUERITE (1:01:53) it's really interesting. I I just learned this too when I was researching. I did not even know this before then. okay. And then I just want to do a really quick rapid fire with you. this some of this we kind of answered, so you just no, no, no, no, no. No, I'm kidding. Okay. So Shannon Kenner (1:02:05) Should I be nervous? Okay. Carl's keeping it real. Okay. MARGUERITE (1:02:16) Every like I said, we kind of covered some of it. But it's very quick answers. So which actually is worse, chemical sunscreen or no sunscreen? Shannon Kenner (1:02:24) Chemical. MARGUERITE (1:02:25) Okay, marketing or legit? Lip SPF. Shannon Kenner (1:02:27) Легет. MARGUERITE (1:02:28) Mineral SPF and makeup, yes or skip it? Shannon Kenner (1:02:30) Yes. MARGUERITE (1:02:30) This is kind of a similar question, but SPF in your moisturizer counts or doesn't count? Shannon Kenner (1:02:35) Counts. MARGUERITE (1:02:36) Reef safe label, trust it or verify it. Shannon Kenner (1:02:39) Verify it. MARGUERITE (1:02:39) seed oils or chemical sunscreen, which do you think is doing more damage to the skin's relationship with the sun? Shannon Kenner (1:02:44) I think chemical sunscreen, but I'm very biased. MARGUERITE (1:02:47) what's the one thing the sunscreen industry doesn't want people to know? Shannon Kenner (1:02:50) That most of their sunscreens are actually causing you to get skin cancer. MARGUERITE (1:02:53) Solid. okay. Sunscreen before or after moisturizer, does it matter? Shannon Kenner (1:02:57) ⁓ I d I I don't know. MARGUERITE (1:03:01) I always thought putting it on after was better. Like kind of letting the moisturizer absorb for like ten minutes. Yeah, that's what I do at least. I don't know. I wouldn't know anything about that. We'll ch we'll check back on that one. okay. What is the biggest mistake people make when applying sunscreen? Shannon Kenner (1:03:07) So it's on top. Mm-hmm. I d I just don't know. they don't get it everywhere. MARGUERITE (1:03:19) That's what I was thinking too. Sunscreen versus rash guard and shade. What is more protective for a toddler? Shannon Kenner (1:03:26) I would say rash card under a shade. What would you say? MARGUERITE (1:03:30) I would assume the same. I I would say Rashgard, I guess. Yeah. okay. I don't know if you're gonna know about this. I did not know about this because I'm not on TikTok. I thought this was very interesting though. It's called sunscreen contouring. It's a TikTok trend, and it's applying less sunscreen to certain areas to tan in a pattern. What are your thoughts on that? Shannon Kenner (1:03:37) no. No, it's ⁓ it's not optimal it's not opt it's not optimal, but ⁓ you know, I I c I can see it. I mean I I I see I see the reasoning behind people using spray Petchcamo's sunscreen. I get it. There is a reason to do it. ⁓ the trade off is too much, weight is not even close for people like me and you. But ⁓ you know. MARGUERITE (1:03:54) Is that really a thing? Yeah. Yeah. We gotta ask for the millennials. Yeah. Yeah. I get that for like contouring your face or something like that. Makes me think of when like we were younger, you go get go to the tanning bed and get like the little Playboy bunny or something on your skin or whatever it was where you block it out. Yep. I don't know about that. Shannon Kenner (1:04:23) ⁓ Right. Right. So where are they contouring? Like are they making it so that like their hips look better or something or their body parts? Faces. so like you get like felt? MARGUERITE (1:04:32) I think the faces. I think I'd like to get the cheekbones and Yeah. Like the contour like contouring you do you would put bronzer and then highlighter on. I mean you guys don't know much about this, but I have no idea. Yeah, come on. Put some more stuff in your body you might not need. Yeah. Shannon Kenner (1:04:43) I mean just t just take Ozempik. Come on, man. Just take Ozempik. I love that. I mean it's like the the the the food industry feeds us all this crap. And then like, we got you on the back end. my goodness. I mean yeah. MARGUERITE (1:04:54) Yes. Yeah. I know. my gosh. It was like it's what someone we just talked about this in our last episode. It was about non toxic lawn care. And she's what she said was so true. She was like the companies, I'm not gonna say what the company is, but the companies that are selling these really toxic lawn chemicals that are causing cancer are then turning around and selling the cancer drugs too. And it's so true. They're all connected. Yeah. Okay. Shannon Kenner (1:05:11) Yeah. Okay. ⁓ Yeah. You know, And then and then the he and then the healthcare thing, I mean the healthcare and you have to pay so much, even when you're healthy, it's it's it's insane. MARGUERITE (1:05:24) I'm totally there with you. I wish like we all knew so we could all stand together because this couldn't happen if we weren't accepting it. So yep. Shannon Kenner (1:05:37) Right. Right. But we're also divided over this other apparently a lot of stuff that doesn't really matter. You know, everybody's trying to. Everybody's trying to like make the world a better place. And like, you know, that Michael Jackson song, If you want to make the world a better place, take a look at yourself and make the change. It's true. Like, if everybody would just go and treat their people right, their their family, their friends. if they were if they work in a company, their coworkers, if they run a company, do the right thing. MARGUERITE (1:06:00) Exactly. Shannon Kenner (1:06:08) I tell my boys, I say, guys, Just treat your people right. Make make your world that you deal with on a daily basis the best it can be. That's all you can do. And why would you do otherwise? I mean MARGUERITE (1:06:18) Uh-uh. I love that so much. Yes. No, but I I believe with you so much. Like it's social media has made it so much worse. But everybody looks at looks for somebody else to give them opinions or to understand something. It's like stop for a minute, go outside into your world. Is that happening there? Like take care of the people around you. Share, help, support, love, you know, have Shannon Kenner (1:06:18) gosh, I'm I'm going off the deep end. Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. MARGUERITE (1:06:38) where your focus is energy flows, so I just focus on positivity. Shannon Kenner (1:06:42) Sure. MARGUERITE (1:06:43) we really enjoyed talking to you. You are lovely. Yeah, it was really enjoyable. Thanks. Yes. A lot of great Shannon Kenner (1:06:45) Same here. Thank you. I I you're welcome and thank you for having me.

• ABOUT THIS GUEST

  Shannon Kenner is a co-founder of Waxhead Sun Defense, where he leads finance and operations for the mineral sunscreen company built on food-grade ingredients and non-nano zinc oxide. With a background in analytics, compliance, fraud prevention, supply chain, and operational systems, Shannon helped build Waxhead after his family struggled to find sunscreen gentle enough for their son’s severe eczema and tough enough for real outdoor use.

  👀 you can find Waxhead Sun Defense:
  
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